Welcome to a brand new episode of the VR Health Insider Podcast!
Be part of us as we welcome again Cix Liv of LIV, YUR and REK for Half 2 of our interview with him. He’s a digital health pioneer utilizing XR applied sciences to enhance the world of sports activities and health.
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Transcript:
Episode 5 – Cix Liv – Half 2
Preston Lewis: [00:00:00] Welcome to the VR Health Insiders podcast, for the creators who’re constructing the way forward for the VR and AR sports activities and health industries that can revolutionize the way in which the world will play sports activities, work out and get match together with your hosts. Preston Lewis and Ryan DeLuca, the founders of Black Field VR, who’re constructing the world’s first full health VR gymnasium and produce a long time of expertise from creating among the largest health know-how corporations on the earth. They’re bringing collectively one of the best and brightest minds that will help you and your organization succeed within the VR health revolution.
All proper. Welcome to half two of our interview with Cix Liv, who’s a VR, AR XR guru and pioneer. In our earlier Half 1 Episode with Cix, he defined his background, which actually make clear how creators must have a ardour for the tech and trade they need to break into, and in addition to construct shortly and keep near the voice of the shopper to actually perceive what they’re loving and hating.
Let’s choose up with our final query from the earlier podcast the place Cix shares insights as to the easiest way to gather person suggestions for a [00:01:00] product.
Do you’ve got any small suggestions so far as the way you go about intelligently amassing that suggestions? Is it simply straight up scouring the Fb posts, organising a Discord? Or do you’ve got particular issues that you simply do, for instance create surveys, do focus teams, or how does that course of go for you with amassing the suggestions?
Cix Liv: If you happen to talk with an individual, like, immediately, it’s sort of just like the distinction between speaking to somebody by way of 4Chan and speaking to somebody by way of their face. Like face-to-face. Proper?
for those who’re on 4Chan, you’re gonna shit on every part. It’s virtually like straight from mind stem to face, proper? Like “this fucking is horrible, that shit blah, blah, blah, blah.” After which once they discuss to you, they’re gonna be like, “properly, I believe it’s best to, you already know, enhance this” or no matter. Proper? So, I believe it’s getting each of these views. Proper? As a result of what you miss while you’re talking to their customers are those that didn’t even care sufficient to speak to you, proper? Often [00:02:00] the customers that you simply’re speaking to are someplace between precise customers and professional customers. Proper?
And also you’re often getting not a number of the suggestions of the folks that simply turned immediately. Proper? They don’t wanna fucking reply to you. They don’t give a shit, they don’t need to inform you what their expertise was. So that you’re gonna have a blind spot on that class of potential customers. Proper?
So for these, you’re gonna need to, like, discover it anecdotally by way of, like, Fb posts or dangerous opinions, and that is why I might at all times chase the dangerous evaluation folks. If you happen to’re constructing that client product to know what’s churning folks from the start and what enhancements can I make for these informal customers, after which the professional customers, ought to we cater to them or not? So I believe that getting these three views and possibly bucketing folks in these three issues, is an effective method to iterate in your product.
Preston Lewis: That’s good recommendation.
Ryan DeLuca: And it feels like, I imply, the troublesome half, in fact is simply having that open [00:03:00] mindset. Proper? It’s very easy to, such as you mentioned, low cost the damaging opinions, or when any individual’s telling you one thing you need to like clarify it. And slightly than get extra details about why do they assume that, and what would they like, how would we alter it? Typically you instantly wanna go into, like, defensive mode. However I agree with you, like, interacting with the neighborhood as a lot as you probably can. Creating alternatives for these interactions, like, by way of, like, locations like Discord, on-line, or for us truly within the gymnasium. Taking customers out to breakfast or lunch, and actually digging into it. And doing it from a spot of studying, not a spot of simply attempting to make them say good issues, and taking that mindset again to the product.
Preston Lewis: A few of our greatest suggestions has come from our sort of squeakiest wheels, if you’ll. Folks that, once they do method it, it’s like this, you already know, they’re possibly rage quitting on an expertise or one thing like that. And it’s, to your level, it’s good to have these folks which are a minimum of passionate sufficient to present us the suggestions that we are able to take heed to after which iterate. As a result of it’s often, it’s often on the mark for bigger teams of our customers. So, yeah. Respect that recommendation, man. That’s superior.
Cix Liv: Yeah.
Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, let’s get into thrilling new issues [00:04:00] that you simply’re doing. So, um, not with YUR, um, and now you’ve began a brand new AR sports activities firm referred to as REK and we’d like to be taught much more about that. So how’d that come about? What made you determine to start out that and, uh, inform us slightly bit concerning the product.
Cix Liv: The most recent firm I began is REK. So it’s sort of a mixture of the 2 prior corporations within the learnings that I had there. So, LIV, the most important studying was how will we attain the folks outdoors the headset? How will we make it fascinating for folks to look at? If you happen to mix that with health, which you already know, is for my part the most important use case of headsets, the information means that retention for health associated apps is twice as excessive as the rest in VR.
Yeah, truly, that’s one small level to say at YUR that we seen. So we had an underlying tracker that labored on the headset it doesn’t matter what. Proper? And what we acknowledged is that when folks used their headset for health, they used it over twice as lengthy.
So the common utilization [00:05:00] size for a headset was about eighteen minutes. However once they used it for health it went as much as forty. That was an enormous studying for me, proper? So the large studying from LIV was we have to present what persons are doing and we have to make it cool for different folks to look at.
The largest studying from YUR was headsets getting used for health have one of the best retention. And, you already know, I consider basically it’s the most important use case of HMDs. Um, so for those who mix these two learnings of health and spectating, you create, you already know what is basically sports activities. Proper?
I began this firm below this premise that, you already know, sports activities are going to be the subsequent large factor. And the rationale I consider that’s as a result of I did some ideation in augmented actuality and it sort of fell into the identical problems with VR, which is, like, why the fuck do I placed on a headset? Proper? And a number of AR apps have that very same problem the place they’re like, “okay, I placed on a headset so I can play puzzles with my good friend who’s additionally bodily there.” After which at that time, I’m similar to, “why don’t you simply fucking [00:06:00] put a puzzle there?” Proper? Like, why are we digitizing that have when it’s one thing that you are able to do in actual life?
Or like, “you need to do augmented actuality basketball? Why don’t you simply play basketball?” Proper? Like, the particular person’s already there. A basketball is, you already know, like twenty bucks. Proper? It’s like know-how attempting to resolve an issue that doesn’t exist. Proper?
So, you already know, there was lots of people who have been doing VR sports activities and for me, I used to be like, “properly that’s not gonna work in AR, since you’re finally simply gonna churn out and do the actual factor.” Proper? This is the reason I’ve an issue with VR sports activities; I consider that the issue with VR sports activities is that the final word objective is while you change into adequate at it, you flip into the actual factor.
What I turned fascinated with is, like, Tron. Let’s make a sport that doesn’t exist in actual life. You watch any sci-fi film that’s ever existed. Proper? [00:07:00] And once they present the way forward for sports activities it’s often comparatively comparable. Proper? Individuals doing stuff and like dueling one another and killing one another digitally, doing stuff which you can’t do in regular sports activities. Like, you possibly can’t kill your good friend in basketball.
Sci-fi films sort of demonstrated what the way forward for sports activities might seem like, and generally you don’t need to combat in opposition to the cultural zeitgeist of one thing and simply comply with by way of with it.
I began this firm with my co-founder Bart.
He was a senior AR engineer at Apple. And you already know, one of many issues he’s at all times been actually concerned about is, what are legitimate use instances of AR that may truly exist proper now? And so he constructed a laser tag recreation that received the primary place for an open laptop imaginative and prescient contest final yr.
And principally I reached out to him and I used to be like, “hey, you already know, like, we should always take into consideration what’s gonna be, like, the Beat Saber of AR? As we transfer to AR, what’s gonna be a correct use case of headsets?” So after we first got here collectively,[00:08:00] we have been testing issues like Area Pirate Coach Enviornment.
So Area Pirate Coach Enviornment, it’s thirty by thirty ft, and it’s like a laser tag recreation the place you run round and also you shoot at one another in VR. Proper? And so we have been testing video games like that, and to begin with, it was such a fucking ache within the ass to discover a place that was thirty by thirty ft precisely. After which the way in which that you simply draw the Guardian with the Quest was a large nightmare. So it needed to even be even larger than that. And if it was outdoors, we’d need to hotspot it, and it will solely work throughout sure instances of the day and all this nightmare. However then one other large factor that we seen, is that while you truly bodily run in VR, it’s so uncomfortable. Your mind begins freaking out.
It’s like, “the place the fuck are you? Like, are you gonna run into one thing? Is somebody gonna mug you?” It must be AR while you’re working. When you introduce working, there must be augmented actuality.
Ryan DeLuca: [00:09:00] Like, I agree. Like, I’ve by no means skilled truly working in VR. Um, yeah, however you’d need to, like, have a ridiculous quantity of belief.
Cix Liv: Yeah. I imply, for those who’ve performed any boxing recreation in VR and punched something, proper? I bear in mind I punched a desk one time and my complete hand was bleeding, however I didn’t understand till I took off the headset and I used to be like, “holy shit.”
Preston Lewis: Oh, wow.
Ryan DeLuca: There may be much less ache notion, so I suppose that could possibly be good and dangerous. There’s a complete subreddit of VR to ER. Proper? Uh, for a motive.
Cix Liv: Oh, is it actually referred to as VR to ER?
Ryan DeLuca: Oh yeah. Persons are exhibiting them destroying issues or hurting themselves.
Preston Lewis: It messes with the immersiveness. Proper? As properly. As a result of, yeah, such as you mentioned, like, when you try this one time, then you definately’re not interested by being within the expertise. You’re interested by hitting one thing. Similar factor occurred to me after I was, uh, I used to be taking part in one of many baseball video games and it miscalibrated my place and so I used to be, like, inches from a wall and went to swing for a pitch and simply slugged the wall as arduous as I probably might. Yeah, I’m not taking part in that anymore.
Cix Liv: The second you introduce [00:10:00] working, that concern turns into a lot extra realized.
Preston Lewis: Attention-grabbing.
Cix Liv: Your physique actually begins freaking out. Trigger it’s, like, is that an actual wall or is {that a} digital wall? The way in which these video games sync, they interlace the avatar on prime of the particular person. Proper? But when that’s off by any important diploma, you’re simply gonna run head first into you’re a good friend. And simply slam into them. Proper? I basically consider that after you develop out of the restricted footprint of VR, it must be AR, for those who’re like working and doing stuff like that.
However there’s large, large challenges with AR. Probably the most apparent ones, for those who begin constructing for this, is that, like, any of those move by way of headsets, they don’t truly section the gamers correctly. So what finally ends up occurring is that every part renders in entrance of the particular person. So say that you simply’re, like, competing in opposition to another person. Proper? And that particular person is there and also you wanna put a objective behind them. Oh, it sounds easy. Proper? However you [00:11:00] can’t, as a result of the objective must render in entrance of them. It might probably’t minimize the particular person out and render the article behind them.
So it’s a must to do immensely sophisticated technical stuff to resolve one thing that wouldn’t exist in VR. Proper? Since you don’t have that very same downside in VR the place it’s a must to, like, section the particular person out. So it’s a must to introduce an invisible avatar that renders on that very same particular person, the place the particular person is, after which it’s a must to guarantee that the particular person is synced correctly.
After which, you’re creating that cutout in entrance of the objective that’s behind them. In any other case, you’ll see the small objective, nevertheless it’ll render in entrance of the particular person, even when they’re, like…
Preston Lewis: That’s fascinating. So it’s like real-time rotoscoping slash masking. That’s fascinating.
Cix Liv: This is the reason, you already know, after we introduced REK, or no matter, we did a extremely easy factor. We did spell duals. Proper? And the rationale we did spell duals have been, okay, you’re punching. It is a mechanic that anyone can perceive. [00:12:00] And one of many largest issues for me that I decide as a hit standards, is the simplicity of preliminary adoption. So while you placed on a headset, the period of time that it takes somebody to know methods to play a recreation is extremely essential. Trigger I’ve demoed VR for hours and hours and hours, and the longer that point takes, the upper probability that they’re gonna churn out. Proper? In order that must be, like, as slim as potential.
So we began, okay, you’re punching on the particular person, no buttons. Quite simple. Proper? After which the rationale it’s a spell duel, is since you don’t need to render any objects behind them. So it wasn’t similar to, hey, we awoke and we have been like, “Hey, let’s do a spell twin like Harry Potter or some shit.” It was primarily based off the restrictions of the Quest headset. Proper?
Like, we are able to’t have objectives behind them. We will’t do all this different fancy stuff with out a large quantity of engineering effort. So the bottom bar for us have been simply, “properly, let’s punch Fireballs at one another.” And in order that’s sort of the rationale why that preliminary demo was [00:13:00] the way in which it was.
Preston Lewis: Small little observe there for our customers, sort of placing a pin in the truth that we talked about you getting scrappy with person suggestions and letting that sort of information product choices. That was a superb instance you simply gave of taking part in within the sandbox of what the know-how can truly do and attain and discovering enjoyable, as quick as potential within the expertise. So, that’s good.
Ryan DeLuca: A giant a part of REK, and why folks appear to love us a lot additionally, is having the ability to spectate. Proper? To allow them to truly watch it from the surface. What you actually put a concentrate on with REK, was making it in order that different folks can watch it in actual time and cheer them on in actual time such as you would a sport. And the way did you get that to work and what have you ever discovered from that kinda skill?
Cix Liv: We realized from fairly early on that having any kind of serious obstacles, wouldn’t solely be complicated for the gamers, however create visible conflicts for spectators. Proper? Whenever you’re watching a soccer recreation otherwise you’re watching a soccer recreation or [00:14:00] one thing, they don’t have like partitions. Proper? Hypothetically if a digicam existed in soccer they usually had all these partitions all over the place, you wouldn’t be capable to see what the gamers are doing. It’s design challenges like that which are essential, however they’re additionally limiting. Proper? Now you possibly can’t do a number of the shit that you simply’ve completed in VR with all these cool environments. Principally the setting virtually disappears at that time. Proper? You may’t have a fancy setting for those who’re attempting to spectate. So, I believe that that’s additionally gonna be one thing to consider that we’re gonna have to determine. We might need to render one thing totally different for the gamers contained in the headset than what folks outdoors see. So, like, within the headset you’d see opaque pillars, however within the spectator view they’re clear. Proper?
Like, all these design choices that you simply’re gonna need to make, that you simply wouldn’t need to even take into consideration in VR, for those who’re designing deliberately for spectating. The last word product that [00:15:00] we’re gonna launch shouldn’t be gonna be a spell duel recreation in the identical capability. Um, however yeah, we have been simply, you already know, what’s the most elementary factor that we are able to do? And what’s the mechanic that anyone on the earth can perceive? And yeah, that’s sort of the place that got here.
We’ve been engaged on fairly just a few totally different recreation ideas and within the subsequent few months we’ll announce that, uh, and it’s not gonna be fairly the identical because the spell duel for the ultimate product, so.
Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, now I’m excited to listen to extra about that.
I don’t know if there’s the rest you needed to say about creating REK and like the selections that have been made round that.
Cix Liv: So we initially got here on this concept, like, “hey, we’re gonna do LBE and stuff”. Proper? After which we truly went by way of the method of attempting to get into the LBE recreation and, uh, whew, man, I don’t…
Ryan DeLuca: Location primarily based leisure, so precise retail footprint. Proper?
Cix Liv: Yeah, yeah. So we checked out Sandbox and we have been like, okay, Sandbox has all these places, [00:16:00] however they’re capital costly, you already know? So then we have been like, “okay, so we’ll ship folks {hardware} and have them set it up at their venue.” And we have been like, “okay, however then we’re gonna have like a 15 yr outdated recent outta highschool attempting to handle this shit. In order that’s gonna be a nightmare and a half attempting to, like, handle that remotely.” Um, so we have been simply, you already know, we tried to work some channel companions on it and we simply realized the LBE technique is one thing that we simply couldn’t afford, truthfully. You understand, we couldn’t afford to even strive it.
So we’re going again to approaching it as creating client product. That’s additionally like the place my specialty comes from, like constructing in VR, is on the patron aspect. So we’re gonna have a VR mode that connects to an AR mode, and our largest focus is gonna be constructing the bridge between these two worlds. How do you truly get folks to carry a headset outdoors? And I believe that’s an unsolved downside. And the way in which I like to clarify it, in probably the most succinct approach potential, is REK is [00:17:00] attempting to do to headsets what Niantic, you already know, Pokemon Go did to telephones. Which is get folks to, like, consider their gadgets as virtually like a health extension of themselves. Or, like, utilizing that to stroll round.
I do assume that sooner or later we might return into LBEs, nevertheless it’s seemingly gonna be extra like UFC tournaments, excessive manufacturing worth, you already know, advertisers, no matter. As a result of, yeah, it’s actually costly and we don’t have the, you already know, we didn’t have the cash to try this. Proper?
Preston Lewis: We’ve seen that as you’re constructing these experiences, one of many belongings you’ve completed, you and the staff have completed very well is making them look cool. Not solely within the expertise, however within the advertising. We sort of talked about the viral movies and issues that you simply did early on. It sounds kinda like a easy factor. Proper? To make issues look cool. As a result of that is future tech, this new tech, and it looks as if it’d be simple to make it cool. However, with Black Field VR, we’ve needed to combat the notion within the early days, a minimum of that VR Health was just for [00:18:00] tremendous techy folks.
However you guys have completed simply an superior job making it approachable and funky. Even wanting on the REK movies, these are additionally getting a bunch of consideration and simply kudos to you and the staff on making the tech look cool.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s a such a superb level. So many instances some new VR health factor comes out or exercise recreation, and it’s similar to the worst graphics, the worst advertising. And clearly that’s not an important factor, you already know, in a number of experiences. Like, we at all times speak about Minecraft, for instance, you already know, beginning out extra pixelated sort of stuff.
It’s at all times, like, man, folks wanna look cool. Like, you already know, such as you mentioned, it’s like no person needs to experience a Segway, however we’ll experience a cool hen scooter down the highway. Proper? You understand, it’s like the identical factor, only a totally different configuration. So, such a superb level that Preston made is, like, all of your stuff seems to be fashionable and funky, that individuals wanna be part of it.
Preston Lewis: It’s superior. Earlier than we jumped on right here, I used to be a few of your stuff and also you sort of poked enjoyable on the, uh, what was it? Horizon Worlds or one thing like that. And you’ve got, like, you’ve got the sort of the dorky sort of graphics and stuff, after which you’ve got you’re a hero shot. I assumed that was actually good. I imply, that’s one other factor that’s actually essential, once more, in driving [00:19:00] adoption is that instrument of contrasting. Proper?
And exhibiting folks, like, it doesn’t need to be this, it may be this. Something that we’ve seen you do, it’s, you’ve completed a extremely good job with that.
Cix Liv: You’re speaking concerning the tweet the place it was like their Metaverse our Metaverse, after which it was just like the… yeah.
Preston Lewis: Yeah. That was superior.
Cix Liv: I imply, to be trustworthy, Meta is making it fairly simple, okay. I’ve to be considerably on their good graces, so I’m sorry prematurely. However, uh, you actually gotta work in your advertising. The Horizons World stuff, I consider, is so dangerous that it’s taking down our complete trade.
I consider Horizon Worlds is so poorly marketed, and such a nasty product, that’s taking down your entire VR house. As a result of while you go into the cultural zeitgeist of speaking to folks about Metaverse. Proper? The very very first thing they’re gonna consider is the shitty wanting Zuck avatar and, you already know, Horizon Worlds And that’s by intention, that Meta is, like, that is the Metaverse, proper? And it’s discrediting [00:20:00] what so many cool issues that we’ve constructed on this house seem like. And it’s actually disappointing, as a result of I believe it’s such a nasty allocation of assets, and it’s such a nasty search for headsets that it’s truly hurting all of us.
Ryan DeLuca: A number of the commercials they make are superb. You understand, once they present, like, what it’s wish to be in VR and put the headset on. Now you’re on this large factor and simply thoughts blowing. And also you’re proper, and clearly it’s nonetheless early days, so we’re all hopeful. Proper?
As a result of I agree with you, like, with the quantity of funding that they’re placing into it, they’ll make or break it, you already know? And in the event that they do an excellent job, the {hardware} will get to the place it must be. It’s gonna be very useful for all of us. However you’re proper, it might carry us down if it’s not the product that the mainstream needs.
Cix Liv: I might look into the PICO if I have been you guys, I don’t know for those who used the PICO 4 in any respect, however, like, this factor is every part the Quest 2 needs to be. It’s thinner, it’s smaller, it’s extra light-weight, it’s designed extra for health. It’s every part the Quest 2.5 ought to have been. And as an alternative, they got here out with a Quest Professional, which is $1,500 that has face [00:21:00] monitoring and eye monitoring, nevertheless it’s even heavier than the Quest 2. And the burden was already a giant downside. I simply I don’t get it.
Preston Lewis: You talked concerning the AR, VR experiences that you simply’ve constructed or are constructing. What are your favourite AR, VR sports activities and health experiences at this time? And what makes ’em good?
Cix Liv: I actually like this recreation referred to as Blaston. I used to be taking part in it lots within the pandemic. So it’s a twin recreation, it’s one v. one, and also you’re taking pictures these numerous pace projectiles at one another and there’s no type of locomotion. You’re each on these small pillars, after which what it finally ends up turning into, is like, you’re having to do a number of dodging… it’s actually energetic. I believe I hit like a thousand energy an hour taking part in that at full depth. I actually favored that.
The most effective sports activities kind recreation in VR proper now might be Nock. So for those who’ve tried Nock, Nock makes use of arm locomotion the place you maintain a set off and also you sort of fly within the air after which it makes use of [00:22:00] bows. So that you’re taking pictures arrows at a ball.
I believe my largest recommendation for individuals who construct VR and AR content material, is on the absolute elementary of what that is, it has to really feel good. If it doesn’t really feel good, nothing else fucking issues. You can also make one of the best graphics on the earth, you can also make an excellent storyline, you can also make regardless of the fuck particle results which are superb. If the bottom mechanics don’t really feel good, none of that shit issues.
And you already know what completely, completely represents that is Gorilla Tag. If you happen to take a look at a screenshot of Gorilla Tag, you’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” They’ve handed Beat Saber for probably the most opinions on the Quest now. They’re now the primary fucking software, they usually’re not even within the retailer. And the rationale for that goes again to the purpose that I made right here, at its baseline, there’s a locomotion methodology. And the locomotion methodology is principally you working in your palms. Proper? [00:23:00] No buttons, no complexity in any respect. And it’s train. It’s like tag, it’s principally like tag for youths. And the children are in there and it positively will get offensive lots, so possibly that’s why they’re not in the primary retailer. But it surely’s principally children working on their arms, yelling at one another. And that turned the primary. I’m not even kidding. They’re simply screaming at one another they usually’re simply working like this.
Preston Lewis: That’s superior.
Cix Liv: Feels good. Feels good. It doesn’t really feel good nothing fucking issues. And your app goes to flop.
Ryan DeLuca: Anytime I’m attempting to reload a gun in one in all these sophisticated sort of first particular person shooters, I suppose my definition of VR, they’re all first particular person, you already know?
But it surely’s like, I’m hitting my controllers collectively, or I’m attempting to do that factor and the man’s coming at me, and I can’t fairly get the little components of reload. It’s like, it kills it for me, as a result of it’s like, I’m certain I might get good at, I’m certain if I performed at one other ten hours, I’d most likely like, you already know, haven’t any downside.
However at first it’s simply, you’re simply, it’s very awkward.
Cix Liv: You understand Denny from Cloud Head, proper? He’s a VR OG and he’s made a bunch of [00:24:00] experiences. His authentic video games have been sort of like Myst, like, Name of the Starseed, the place you want, would principally resolve puzzles in VR with actually excessive constancy. And he constructed Pistol Whip, you guys know Pistol Whip, proper? And Pistol Whip is principally similar to Time Disaster on rails by way of, like, the psychological math and what you want to do. You understand, you’re going from extraordinarily advanced, and dynamic and superb graphics into, like, principally Cel Shaded Time Disaster.
It was his most profitable title. And, like, I believe a number of recreation builders are mad about that. And so they go, ” why can’t we now have superb graphics? Why can’t we now have dynamic storylines? Why can’t we now have all this different shit?” And it’s like, properly, if it doesn’t really feel good, persons are simply gonna use their console. They’re simply gonna go play their Ps. Proper?
Preston Lewis: You sort of alluded to designing in recreation mechanics and interplay patterns which have decrease cognitive load, proper? In order that the sport continues to be enjoyable and folks keep immersed. So what do you’re feeling like [00:25:00] is lacking from the AR, VR sports activities and health trade at this time?
Cix Liv: Effectively, if I informed you that I’d be giving freely my secrets and techniques.
Preston Lewis: There we go.
Cix Liv: So I’ve divulged every part.
Preston Lewis: Wonderful, inform us your first identify, then. Wonderful. Simply inform us your first identify.
Ryan DeLuca: Yeah, what’s your actual identify?
Preston Lewis: Yeah, what’s your delivery identify?
Cix Liv: I believe which you can sort of, like, paint the image of what I believe goes to be the longer term primarily based off what I’ve mentioned previously. Which is, you already know, low cognitive load, simple to know, motive to placed on the headset is energetic, you already know, fascinating for folks to look at. After which the most important situation in our house, by far, is working across the limitations of the {hardware}. Proper? As a result of like, oh my God, I can inform you what number of instances I ideated on some shit, and I turned out as, like, can’t do it. It’s, like, ninety % of the shit you construct in our trade, falls into “sounds good, doesn’t work.”
Trustworthy to God, it’s like virtually each fucking concept that I’ve, it’s [00:26:00] like, “oh, you already know, I can’t try this due to Fb platform management. I can’t try this as a result of we don’t have decrease physique monitoring. I can’t try this as a result of the hand monitoring wasn’t educated to work outdoors, so it solely works in low gentle environments. I can’t try this as a result of, you already know, the second you place a weight in your hand, it could possibly’t detect your hand anymore. So you possibly can’t quantify the health.” Proper?
One other large situation with creating for AR, is that you simply don’t have entry to the digicam knowledge, it simply principally is available in as a shader. That’s it. And in order that limits a complete bunch of stuff that you are able to do. After which there’s no loss of life digicam in it, so you possibly can’t simply section gamers out. You understand, there’s some like laser tag ideas that individuals have made with the Quest. And so they create this video and it makes it look so good.
It’s, like, “okay, there’s folks of their workplace they usually’re hiding behind packing containers they usually’re taking pictures at one another, that’s gonna be so fucking superb.” Proper? And then you definately go about to do it your self and develop it, like something like that, and also you’re, like, “holy shit, this [00:27:00] is unimaginable”. Like, to begin with, you possibly can’t flip off the guardian for the Quest until you’re in dev mode. Okay? How many individuals are in dev mode. Proper? Like, folks on SideQuest, nobody else. So, you possibly can’t make an AR expertise that has the guardian off. And also you’re gonna what, draw a thirty foot guardian each single time in your workplace? Proper? In order that’s an enormous situation. After which I discussed the problem of, like, rendering folks on prime of it, after which the truth that there’s no shared SLAM maps?
So, like, if I’ve a SLAM map in my headset, I can’t share it to any headset round me within the Quest ecosystem. You may within the Vive, so the Vive has shared SLAM maps. So, I’ve to go map your entire scene with my headset, after which I can’t share that SLAM map with anyone else. So all these ideas that individuals present are very conceptual, as a result of you possibly can’t truly do a number of this shit.
The factor that’s aged me probably the most on this [00:28:00] house is the “sounds good, doesn’t work” shit, which seems to be like ninety % of something that you simply consider.
Ryan DeLuca: It’s fascinating, as a result of often what we hear is “it’s irritating as a result of most individuals don’t have a headset”, you already know? In order that’s already the limitation that we’re coping with. Is that, it’s not that everyone’s bought a headset, however we are able to’t do these issues. That simply provides onto it, and it simply creates much less causes for folks to get the headset.
And we run into the identical issues. It’s, you already know, we’re caught in, uh, you already know, SteamVR ecosystem. And, you already know, we’re utilizing the Vive Professionals at, uh, Black Field. As a result of we now have to have some kind of method to do exterior monitoring of arms and palms, with out coping with occlusion from regular hand monitoring for various actions, like squats and deadlifts and overhead press.
And so we’d love to have the ability to use a wi-fi headset. We’re nonetheless caught with the wired headset, as a result of we’d like to have the ability to have principally the Vive monitoring pucks, or we use the Tundra Trackers. And, you already know, there’s different issues like Kinect-style cameras that we doubtlessly might use. We’ve examined a bunch of these issues, however they’re not quick sufficient, you already know, as a result of we’re doing a number of punching and slicing and actions, or they take care of occlusion as [00:29:00] properly.
So, you already know, it looks like every part’s actually shut. Like, man, good hand monitoring and, you already know, if we might simply get that in order that the sector of view is slightly bit higher. Full physique monitoring, even when they’re simply sort of like guess slightly bit round, it could possibly be actually fascinating. However, such as you mentioned, these shared experiences are just about unimaginable with the restrictions of this closed down {hardware}, and we’re gonna have all that stuff quickly, you already know? And when are we gonna have all that stuff we would like? It could possibly be tomorrow, it could possibly be an announcement from any individual tomorrow. It could possibly be three years from now and we simply don’t know.
You’ve talked about Beat Saber, like that modding neighborhood. I completely agree, like, with out LIV, with out that modding neighborhood, and all the opposite songs and all the opposite stuff, it wouldn’t be the place it’s at this time. It’s clearly nonetheless an superior recreation, nevertheless it may need been extra of an Audioshield and get some traction, however not a number of traction prefer it did. And so they’ve taken a number of that stuff away, particularly talking concerning the Quest platform, which is the most important platform at this time, in fact.
Preston Lewis: The subsequent query was gonna be describe your excellent AR, VR sports activities and health expertise. But it surely feels like it’s staying throughout the sandbox of the {hardware} that’s presently [00:30:00] out there. Attempting to future forged slightly bit, however not going loopy, as a result of as you talked about, for those who construct too far forward all you’re gonna have is a bunch of tears and no shipped merchandise.
You talked concerning the spectator side of it, which we from day one we thought was tremendous essential in Black Field VR. We at all times say that the good factor about sports activities, constructing a sports activities title, is which you can construct it and it’s infinitely replayable. Versus having to truly construct a title that’s sort of this linear storyline that has x quantity of hours and then you definately gotta construct it once more. So, that’s large. We completely agree.
And never just for the enjoyable of the person, however we actually do consider that AR, VR spectating modes could possibly be superb. Proper? We’ve all seen the World of Warcraft slash League of Legends, gigantic spectacles of eSports and stuff like that, so feels like the identical web page there.
After all offers you a exercise, in fact is immersive, makes use of patterns that aren’t an excessive amount of cognitive load. And principally, simply, we have to one way or the other crack the whip on the {hardware} producers and get them to construct stuff sooner for us, as a result of[00:31:00] that’s what we run into.
Cix Liv: I might attain out to PICO although. The PICO 4, you already know, the 2 essential focuses they’ve are health and video games, they usually appear to be taking health very severely. There’s additionally a extremely fascinating motive for that, by the way in which.
In China, they’ve caps on what number of video, how a lot you possibly can play a online game per day. And for those who can persuade the federal government that it’s a health machine, you get away of that limitation. In order that’s truly one of many small causes they’re hyper-focused on health, is that if they’ll persuade the federal government that it’s a health machine and never a recreation machine, they’ll truly get away of that limitation.
That’s a small factor I found by happening the trail of localizing to China.
Ryan DeLuca: Effectively, man, we’ve realized a lot from you. I believe we bought like 1,000,000 notes right here. This’ll positively be our longest podcast ever, thus far. So, uh, actually recognize it. I believe to wrap issues up, what’s subsequent for you? What’s subsequent for REK? We’ve, you’ve heard lots about, uh, these upcoming variations of the sport and what it’s not gonna [00:32:00] be, and slightly little bit of what it’s gonna be, however the place, what’s subsequent for you and, and what are you guys, uh, as much as subsequent?
Cix Liv: I suppose you’d need to comply with my Twitter.
Preston Lewis: There we go. Name to motion.
Cix Liv: C I X L I V. Um, I’m keen to expose every part concerning the previous of how I bought to this point, however among the stuff that we’re engaged on sooner or later, I’d wish to maintain below wraps till we announce it. We’re positively going to be constructing one thing that works in AR and VR, and we’re positively going to construct a companion software that permits you to spectate that. After which, hopefully sooner or later, transfer this into tournaments with brackets and leagues and, you already know, all of the stuff that sports activities have.
I believe one of many large issues I wanna go away folks with, that’s one thing that, is perhaps a lightweight bulb second. Is after we have been doing our checks, we did a pilot, down in, um, Los Angeles. There have been just a few various things that occurred that made me assume we’re happening the precise path.
Um, there was a [00:33:00] boyfriend and girlfriend who have been, you already know, the boyfriend was going to go play in opposition to his good friend. And earlier than he performed, and he was placing on a headset, his girlfriend came to visit to him, gave him a kiss, and mentioned, “you higher win”. After which we had a second the place a dad was watching his son, and he was taking part in in opposition to his son’s good friend, and he was standing there subsequent to the TV like, you already know, cheering on his son, like, very, very clearly, cheering on his son. And he might see his son and he might see how he was taking part in his good friend and all this different stuff. And so these moments have been actually essential.
However the factor that basically gentle bulb this to me, is that if this was a online game that by no means would’ve occurred, as a result of what would’ve occurred is, to begin with, that girlfriend could be like, “what the fuck are you doing?” Like, “we’re at a venue”, like, “why are you going and sitting and taking part in League of Legends?”
Like, you already know, “we’re right here to have enjoyable, what the fuck are you doing?” Proper? As a result of she couldn’t take part in what was occurring, as a result of she’d haven’t any [00:34:00] concept or the context of what the fuck is occurring. Proper? And so that might’ve occurred. After which the identical factor would’ve occurred with the dad and his child. The place if his child came to visit and sat down and performed a online game, despite the fact that it was, you already know, quote on quote eSports, he’d be like, “what the fuck are you doing? We’re out right here to have enjoyable.” Once more, as a result of he couldn’t take part or perceive what was occurring. And so my large obsession with this house is that I consider if we nail this, that is larger than your entire XR house, as a result of it breaks out of the house like that Beat Saber video did 5 years in the past.
And that’s why I do that. I consider that if that is nailed, XR sports activities change into larger than your entire house, as a result of it could possibly get adoption from individuals who aren’t in headsets. And that’s why I’m like, gentle bulb second. That is it. You understand? Now, whether or not or not the {hardware} is gonna get there in time and, you already know, [00:35:00] all this different fucking bullshit we take care of in our house is one other query. However, you already know, that’s the hope. That’s the dream.
Preston Lewis: Yeah, so, all proper, that’s on a regular basis we now have. Thanks a lot, Cix for being right here with us. I’m certain our viewers actually appreciates it. And for anybody within the viewers, as at all times, we’ll put something within the present notes to get into contact with Cix and to get entangled in what he’s doing. Actually recognize it. Thanks once more.
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